A Lawyer's Path to Success with Michael Allers

You're in for a treat as we sit down with Michael Allers, a transformative figure in the legal world and partner at Gunderson Detmer. Get a first-hand account of Michael's journey from a big law firm to launching his practice, reflecting his audacity, resilience, and steadfast commitment to his values. Tune in as we delve into the intricate world of law, exploring the challenges and triumphs.

We're also diving deep into the habits and strategies that set successful individuals apart - the priceless value of mentorship, family influence, and the power of a tranquil morning ritual before the day's hustle. Hear about Michael's wife's crucial role in his journey, underscoring the immense influence of a supportive partner. Draw inspiration from the narratives of veterans like David Goggins and Jason Redman as we discuss converting failure into fuel for success.

As Michael shares his Navy experience that propelled him onto a different career trajectory, prepare to be moved. We chat about the joy and significance of nurturing long-term relationships and the absolute necessity of pursuing one's passion with courage and determination. The conversation ends with an exciting revelation about Michael's plans to launch his podcast soon. Grab this chance to listen to a captivating blend of personal experiences, professional insights, and life lessons that promise to leave you inspired.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Thank you, good afternoon, good evening, good morning, wherever you are in the world, and thank you for tuning in to number 14 in the episodes of Arise from the Ashes. This podcast, if you don't know, is all about you and adversity, coming from adversity into success, your journey, into whatever you do in the world and showing up the way you do. I want to special guest the Aikul and Michael Allers. He is an attorney and he is awesome. I'm going to let him introduce himself, but welcome, michael, and welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:38

Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot, Boz. Really appreciate the invite. Thanks for letting me be on. Michael Allers, I'm a partner at a law firm called Gunderson Detmer. It's a Silicon Valley based law firm. I live in San Francisco. We've got offices in a number of places in New York and some other cities and my practice and my firm focuses on early stage companies, pre-IPO companies, venture investors, the venture ecosystem, growth, equity and things of that nature. I'm a corporate partner. That means I represent founders, companies, venture investors, other types of investors in that ecosystem. So that's a little bit of a basic background of where I am. But again, thanks a lot for letting me be on today.

Speaker 1: 1:23

Thank you for joining me. It's a privilege to have you here, one of the things our listeners like, and they're fascinated by our stories of adversity. Can you share a time that you face significant challenges in your life or career, and how are you ultimately turned it around from where you were to where you are now and saw the opportunity in it?

Speaker 2: 1:47

Yeah, sure, I'll tell you quickly how I got involved in this particular field of law. We can talk a little bit about that I used to do. I've been practicing for a number of years about 12 years or so and I halfway through. It's a little bit background when you're kind of going through the ranks in what they call big law and a big law firm. It tends to be the case that or at least the prevailing view out there is that you're kind of you kind of have to like stay on a track. You go to a big firm, you continue to work at a big firm, and if you kind of leave that path, I guess the old wisdom anyway is that it's very difficult to kind of come back and continue to do that. But I don't know, several years ago I'd say six years ago at this point maybe I was at a big law firm and was taken care of a family member who eventually passed and I basically just quit. I didn't have the capacity to kind of continue doing both things. I wasn't able to kind of take sufficient leave to be able to do that, and so I basically just resigned. I had, you know at the time, what I was really looking to do was kind of stay in practice, eventually make partners somewhere, so but nonetheless I just left the practice completely and I, you know, attended to family things for a while and so then when I was, you know, when I had some more freedom to maneuver, I decided to kind of start my own practice. Basically it was kind of what was available to me and I don't know that I would have even thought about, you know, leaving where I was to do that. But because that was really kind of what my, what my leading option was at the time, I did that and it was, you know it's. I had no idea what I was doing, so I kind of made it up. Actually, in law, like you do, that a lot it turns out. But that's kind of what we specialize in is like being confronted with new stuff and figuring it out. That actually is the practice to a certain extent.

Speaker 2: 4:07

But nonetheless, I started my own practice and it was. I had absolutely no idea how to do anything. I had a market you know I was doing. I was focusing on the startup you know community, where I was. I was in Austin at the time and you know it took a while to get off the ground, wound up getting, you know, just started to figure it out gradually, getting a few clients here and there and kind of you know, learning a little bit, you know how to do the marketing piece and how to do the business side of my practice as I went. But it turns out I mean I look back to that all the time as a time when I would it was actually a little bit depressing.

Speaker 2: 4:47

Law is a difficult field. I mean it's like a kind of frankly on its face like can be a can be a very daunting and difficult job at times. But it was a difficult time. It was a little bit. It was a depressing time because I had kind of left the career that I wanted to be in and was kind of struggling to kind of figure out this practice.

Speaker 2: 5:07

But over time I started to kind of realize that it was way it was. It was infinitely better than the way I had practiced before. I started to kind of have these great relationships with founders, early stage guys, early stage, you know, companies that were just getting off the ground didn't really have any money to pay me. That was fine. But, you know, really developing some relationships and it kind of kind of hit me, maybe a year or more into it. That it was. It was I was actually enjoying it quite a bit, not still not making, you know, you know the kind of compensation that I had really wanted to, but but it was just, it was rewarding. I was learning a lot and developing these really great relationships. I wound up deciding to, kind of, you know, after I had built that up a little bit, I kind of realized, well, I could kind of maybe, you know, level up here and move and move to a bigger practice again right.

Speaker 2: 6:04

And that old, that old kind of wisdom out there if you, you know, if you kind of leave the track in big law, it's really, really difficult to come back turned out to be totally not, not true at all. I wound up going to a bigger firm bringing my you know, some of my clients with me as well and and some of those clients a couple of them in particular I've been with since and I represent them now at at Gunterson. And so, to be honest, when I look back on on that practice that was, it seemed like a very difficult time. It seemed like I was maybe going to like leave law altogether and maybe I I explored other options. I did. I actually at one point seriously explored a bartender opportunity at a Whole Foods near me and I thought maybe that that would be just as good and I almost did that.

Speaker 2: 6:51

But I don't know. I look back on that and it's that a lot of things I did during that two year-ish period. I we're very formative to the way I think about my practice and I, if I hadn't, if that hadn't happened, it would, it wouldn't have been the same. So it's, that's my, that's my quick story. It to me it was, it was adversity, because it was just. It was just a difficult family situation. It was, you know, kind of leaving, leaving a really what I thought was leaving a career that you know I wasn't going to able be able to do again. I had invested a lot of money and time into that. But you know, doesn't always work out that way and what the prevailing wisdom is often mistaken.

Speaker 1: 7:36

So hindsight is also 20, 20, isn't it so right exactly? I mean, I love the story about you know the the going through it and then finding out the challenges in it, because a lot of entrepreneurs, business owners, now going through this study and start-ups, as you're aware, they haven't got the first clue about how to run a business. I, I was the same.

Speaker 2: 7:58

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 7:59

So I got thrown into what I'm doing now, not knowing marketing, not knowing sales, not even knowing which direction to go in Right, and somehow you muddle through it and you get through it, and then next time there's another, another problem, right, but these problems are there to be overcome. So I love that story, but you what you've? The successful part of this is you came away from all this with the experience of marketing, sales and some other negotiation techniques, especially in your line of work, to bring into another practice for another, another area. So that's amazing.

Speaker 2: 8:34

Yeah, yeah, exactly, thanks, I'm very grateful for it. It's, it's. It's an eclectic, you know, circuitous path a little bit, but but yeah, it was great.

Speaker 1: 8:43

I look back on it fondly. This is why I love doing things like this, because you never know. The old Tom Hanks saying life's like a box of chocolates. You know and it's true. So the next question I have for you is successful individuals often have a unique habits or strategies in the morning. Is there anything that you do not necessarily in the morning, but religiously you do without file? That's part of you, who you are, your makeup.

Speaker 2: 9:14

Yeah, I mean, you know this, I'm going to give you kind of a weird answer and I'm I don't know that I have a theory of the case on this answer that will make sense to anybody. You know, I don't know. I try to get up early and there's a lot of folks out there who talk about exactly what you're talking about is some kind of a routine that is beneficial to being efficient and productive. I get up early primarily because I do a lot of work on the east coast and so if I wake up, I'm in San Francisco. If I wake up at like 6 am, it's already too late and I can't make it through my inbox, so I try to get up around five and I just moved from San Francisco recently to the East Bay, to Alameda.

Speaker 2: 10:03

Actually, I built myself. I built this Koi pond in my backyard Absolutely the worst thing you could ever do. Don't ever do that. But I did it. It's complete now and honestly, it's cool. It's got this little waterfall. It's very contemplative. So my thing to do is like, before I check any email, I spend like a half an hour drinking coffee by the Koi pond. It's like it's absolutely don't ever build one yourself. Absolutely do not. But if you ever come across one and you have one I do find it to be pretty extraordinary in terms of, like the you know, getting some peace of mind and getting your mental state correct and ready to go and check some email. But it's a lot of fun and it's like you know, sit there, just kind of hang out, watch the fish, listen to the waterfall it's great, that's what I do.

Speaker 1: 11:02

I love that and I know this driver with building, architecture and gardens. I'm next gardener, so before I yeah, we don't go too much into my story I was forces. I came out a long story between that and there and then, but I think it was a gardener and I ran a garden that's open to the public for about 40, the turnover was about 40 million per year in the UK and they had nine separate gardens and part of that was a prize possession Koi car pond. That was a pain in the ass, so I know the struggle is real with that. So pass off to you for building that, because that's I know how hard that is.

Speaker 2: 11:46

Yeah, digging the hole is the thing that actually is the worst thing that that someone could do. I built a lake.

Speaker 1: 11:53

So I built a 25 meter lake by 15 meter lake 25.

Speaker 2: 12:00

My pond is smaller but it felt about that size.

Speaker 1: 12:03

It took me about four months to build in crime. It's a priority. And then I had to get a sheep in to seal it with charcoal and play, oh yeah, the whole sheet. The flock of sheep just trapped nuts and that's amazing.

Speaker 2: 12:18

I did not go that route. I wish I knew that was available to me as an option. So I get the struggle when it comes to outside landscaping.

Speaker 1: 12:30

Oh man, what. There's an old saying the average. You're the people who you hang around with the most. The five most hang around with who do you find the most influential in your life or now, or just going through your journey? Who are the most five influential people? The five most.

Speaker 2: 12:53

Yeah, they don't have to be famous.

Speaker 1: 12:55

They don't need two or three maybe.

Speaker 2: 12:58

Well, I mean probably the most influential person right now. I've been married for 15 years. As my wife.

Speaker 2: 13:09

Congratulations, thank you, but as a practical matter, I think that is true, yes, I agree, I think actually, probably, you know, the most influential person in my life was my dad. My dad passed up, you know, several years ago. That was a family member. I'm sorry, but so, yeah, I've been around for six years or so but but, but certainly no, no one more Influential than that.

Speaker 2: 13:37

I think about them all the time and, as you know, it's interesting too because you know, just kind of having that source of advice and kind of you know someone to you know, have a have another view and counterpoint on I can miss that when it's not available, it's really hard to kind of replicate. But Beyond that, I don't know, I'd have to think more deeply. I think those, those are the two that certainly come to mind, you know, for me right now. But but to have five, I think would be good and maybe that's Inspirationally. I should, I should seek out you know, other other mentors. I think that's important. I think it's tough to find good mentors, but I'll have to come back to you on the other three and maybe, maybe I need to do a little work there to see who, who to seek advice from. But that's where I'm at right now.

Speaker 1: 14:24

It's an interesting question. I like the question because it provokes that deep thought within people and what I found on this journey is they have like you have a white, you have your spouse, and that's an influence. It is in my life. She is such an inspiration to me and Mainly the reason I'm still here, because without her I would not be. I know that hundred percent, yeah, but and you know the family members but it's going that one level deeper to uncover what is truly possible within somebody when they start modeling others. And it brings me on to my next question which leaders in the world, past or present, really inspired you to do what you do today, how you show up?

Speaker 2: 15:15

Huh, yeah, that's a really good question. You know, a Lot of times when I think about, about that kind of question and what I, what I'm doing now and what I want to do, and maybe this goes a little bit more to like you know. Then your prior question, there were a couple of. I was in the Navy, you know, ages ago, and Often when I think about almost anything in my, in my job, whether it's a business kind of question or a leadership issue or management or you know, just kind of dealing with dealing with folks you work with or clients, I just there's, there's a guy that I think about, that I work with in the Navy, who was, who was a, who was a you know it's not someone you you're gonna probably know, but it was a Navy SEAL.

Speaker 2: 16:06

I I wasn't, I was a surface officer, but I wound up doing a program when I was first in the Navy and I met a bunch of these folks who were, who are, navy SEALs and I probably, I probably, you know, had I been like you know more, more ambitious and you know more physically fit, I probably should have done, done that or try to do that. As I look back on that and those guys, this one guy in particular. It's just I've never seen anyone who was just a better, all-around person but also just a fantastic leader and manager of folks and just as an example, I mean you know this one guy in particular I'm just calling Pete for a second. You know I'm not gonna give away his name. He's not a well, you know it's not a famous person, but you know he was a Navy SEAL officer and you know, just just in the year that I was kind of doing this program and working with those guys, the things I learned about management, leadership, working with people, motivating people is just amazing. And again, I wish I maybe should have done, done something more ambitious and tried to do that. Probably wasn't, wasn't my path, but I've never seen the like of it. I mean just just in terms of you know, you know, you know you have this idea of just like. You know how his, how his attitude would just like influence everybody else around him, right. So even if he was doing something super difficult or challenging, you know just kind of having the right, you know the right attitude and kind of you know letting that effect, you know an impact that people around him was like was really. It's just such an amazing leadership tactic that I've never forgotten, I think you know.

Speaker 2: 17:48

So you, I don't know if you, if you focus on famous folks there were a couple of folks in the SEALs who were kind of famous and I wound up kind of like thinking about that later on after that, after that time, and kind of reading their books. There's this guy, jason Redman, he may have heard of, he's kind of doing the Been on on some podcasts recently. In fact I had a chance to meet him. Finally, I've been kind of been, you know, aware of him and read his recent book and is you know, some of his other stuff. This guy is like you know, he's amazing and meeting him in real life was, was fantastic to me.

Speaker 2: 18:22

I met him about I don't know less than a year ago out in New York. He was doing this Navy SEAL swim around the around Manhattan, but so so those are the two answers I'll give you. This one guy, pete, that I knew personally, and this guy, jason Redman, who is a living leader and kind of American hero. He's just the best there is and it just, I mean I, you know, would aspire to to, to kind of get to that level. But but those are. Those are two examples, right there.

Speaker 1: 18:50

It's never too late to get to that level. You just need to commit and go. Yeah, I've always had respect for veterans, and for my own different reasons. So you know, just to meet them people is amazing. I know a few myself and I met several, so I get the sensitivity of it and what they actually do. So much respect for what they do it. And then afterwards they show up in the world in different ways. I I know David Goggins, who's the most famous one. His books, his, you know his stories.

Speaker 2: 19:24

Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1: 19:27

Talking of books, can you recommend any books that you've read personally, or you you would recommend anybody else to read and in your field, or anything even in personal development?

Speaker 2: 19:39

Yeah, let me, let me see, I mean, I actually think that that Jason Redman's book, it's really just just an amazing book and I will put the link in the description.

Speaker 1: 19:50

So if you just let me know what it is now, I'll advertise this book quite happily.

Speaker 2: 19:55

Yeah, it's, it's, it's fantastic, the one that I would recommend. I just want to make sure I have the right one. The most recent one, and I think it is called overcome, is his most recent book, but it talks a lot about his, his experience in Iraq and Afghanistan. You know Iraq mostly. You know he was, he was involved in and kind of led as the SEAL team leader. You know several high-profile operations, let's just say, and Mm-hmm was it was injured several times. You know, and Talk about overcome as a title. It's kind of you know, it's kind of appropriate a little bit for your podcast really, but it is the ultimate story of overcoming adversity. You know he was shot several times and you know, kind of when he came out of the SEALs had significant difficulty just recovering physically, yeah, much less mentally. It's like the most inspirational book I've ever read. Check it out if you haven't. That one. You know I is worth, it's worth going back to.

Speaker 1: 21:07

I mean, I love things like that because other people whose experience could shake a shape or own realities and the best way to learn is from people who have personally done it and yeah, and succeeded and learn from the experiences. So I love books like that.

Speaker 2: 21:25

Prior one that I that before that I might have thought about is one of my favorite of all times actually have on my shelf. Here is the. Is the patent biography, the Carlos Desi, but have that one up there, but but this Jason Redmond book I should put it on my shelf. It's really, it's really truly, truly amazing.

Speaker 1: 21:45

Awesome, are you? Have you any aspirations to be an author, or is that not your thing?

Speaker 2: 21:50

I, I thought about it from time to time and I've dabbled on it, dabbled in it, both in, you know, nonfiction and fiction as, yeah, I have. The short answer is yes, I think that I got to find the right time to kind of fit it in and I'm all I think I'm almost there. You know, you know, I in the legal field, you wind up kind of just like read. This is what we do. We read and write literally all the time. But so that's good in one sense it's a lot of practice, but it's also a very particular type of reading and writing. So I do, I've thought about that. So TBD on that.

Speaker 1: 22:31

Please let me know. I'm happy to put that out and back it up if you wish to.

Speaker 2: 22:37

Yeah, I appreciate that, thank you.

Speaker 1: 22:39

I love I mean I love people who have the bravery to go and stick with their own beer authors and share their message in the world, so I'm more for that. Failure is a massive component to people's lives, or the perceived view of failure. Most people think it's a negative thing. Can you provide any insight or lessons that you've gone through? I know you spoke briefly earlier about changing careers and going into something else, but what's the one greatest failure you've had that's turned out to be the biggest success? I'm not asking about, obviously, cases caribbean past, but within yourself and you've used what is perceived to be a failure so actually fuel you going forward.

Speaker 2: 23:31

Yeah, so I'll give you an example that kind of goes back to when I was back in the Navy. It's ancient history, it's ages ago, but I was a surface officer. I was in the Navy from 99 to 03. So it fades me a little bit. But back around. So on both sides of 9-11, basically, yes, sir, and I was deployed. I spent most of my time on an aircraft carrier that was stationed in Japan, but after 9-11 it was mostly stationed off the coast of Pakistan.

Speaker 2: 24:10

That was the carrier doing a lot of those ops, I know you're not, yes, and so, look, I'll give you a little bit of a personal story here. I am being forward deployed in the Navy. I was a young kid. It's pretty difficult. I had wanted to do something I won't give you the particulars. I had wanted to do something in the Navy that is challenging and requires a long period of time to get accepted to and it's very difficult to do, and I was kind of like had my heart set on it and I didn't get it, and so it really kind of in my mind at the time, really kind of negatively affected my career. And, let's put it this way, I wanted to do something different than what I was doing. I was being a surface officer and after that period of time, shortly after that, I was kind of deployed to Japan. I was at the time I was like you know, that was like I was giving an anecdote they, when I found out I wasn't going to be able to do what I wanted to do, they gave me a choice. They said, hey, there's like five options. You can be five geographic locations we can send you, order them, and the last one on my list was Japan. That's what they sent me, but so it was pretty depressing for a while and you know it took me a while to kind of get over that and to be accepting of it. And you know, during that time I kind of it just kind of felt like I was a little bit trapped in the situation. You're in the Navy, you can't really just leave. You know, I was there for three years at the time and so during that time I spent a lot of time being depressed and being upset about my situation. And previous to that I had actually spent a year I mentioned I had spent a year with some seals, right, some Navy seals. I spent my first year in the Navy at this place called the Naval Postgraduate School of Monterey. Okay, so during that time I kind of I was doing like a just a quick, you know, year long postgrad program and I developed, you know, an interest in going back to grad school.

Speaker 2: 26:28

And so when I was in this situation, sitting on, you know, an aircraft carrier, you know, at first in the South China Sea, then off the coast of Pakistan, I started to think about what I want to do next and I started to, you know, create a, develop a plan to basically, you know, apply to grad school after I was out and I was going to deal with, like, like I mentioned, a joint program, a joint PhD in JD, and you know it took a while, but I kind of started to, you know, develop that plan and realize I needed to kind of catch up a bit. Not only did I need to kind of read a bunch of stuff for the program I was applying to, but I actually needed to write at least one or two kind of major papers. And so it became a little bit of a hobby then, more of like a vocation, and basically what I was doing was just spending a lot more, you know, any free time I had kind of developing that and reading, try to source books from different places. I used to. We used to hit port calls in like Singapore and stuff, and I'd go to the National University of Singapore to kind of do research, try to like download papers and kind of like you know. So over a course of a couple of years I did that, I refocused, I worked on that, I was working on a couple of papers from my application and, you know, ultimately I wound up doing that Right after I got to the Navy.

Speaker 2: 27:52

I had a couple of options for grad schools. I wound up going to Michigan. At the same time, this paper that I wrote while I was on this aircraft carrier off the coast of Pakistan for the most part actually won this contest, this kind of professional contest that wound up getting published in the antelay philosophy community. So that paper I do believe. I'm not sure, but I believe it's probably the only professional academic paper in that field that was written on an aircraft carrier off the coast of Pakistan. Now Wittgenstein famously wrote one of his great works right behind me in the trenches in World War I. So that does beat what I accomplished there, but I do think it's a little bit second to Ludwig Wittgenstein, but nonetheless it's, you know, kind of something I look back on and think that was pretty neat.

Speaker 1: 28:50

Now I'm going to be on a mission to find that paper, to see where it is. Oh it's it's age.

Speaker 2: 28:55

it was like 2003, so you'll never find it. I think it's on like the journey, like some somewhere, like some, some journal, some university journal, maybe Rochester or something like that. Anyway, take a look at it, I don't know. I'll try.

Speaker 1: 29:14

I'll generally try and find it because I'm intrigued. The last question I have for you is Looking to from where you are now looking forwards, what are your aspirations? Where do you see yourself headed in sort of three to five years plus? I know you said about possibly becoming an author, but how can you use that to help other aspiring professionals in the same field or somebody trying to break into the attorney field? I know how difficult competition fed that is and can be in health. It's like a zoo sometimes in the field you're in. What advice would you give somebody going through similar stages?

Speaker 2: 30:01

Try something different. I'm just kidding. I mean sometimes that is the right advice. I mean, what's interesting is that I it's funny because one of my earlier stories was how I was disappointed that I had to leave the field of quote, quote big law. The kind of running joke out there is that it's really a very difficult profession. It's like when you see what's out there you read like there's like a blog above the law and some others, but really kind of like the ethos of it is like this is really not only a tough job but a terrible job. I will say that it is very difficult and it is kind of a grind, but in the last two years in particular, in part because of the new platform that I'm on I moved to Gunderson Deppmer, you know fairly recently been like two or three years now. It's really become I mean, I'm almost I'm at risk for saying this, but I would dare say that it's become enjoyable to me. I mean and the lawyer, if they heard that, would believe it, but it really is and in part because of it's, in part because of the firm I'm at, because of the platform I'm on, but also because of the types of clients I work with and the work has shifted for me a little bit as well.

Speaker 2: 31:26

I'm a partner of my own practice. I'm developing my practice right now and building up my business and in doing that, a lot of the kind of menial grunt work that you do in law as a junior associate I don't do that. I'm much more kind of like the strategy side of things. I'm available to my founders at any time when they want to talk strategy on any given thing One of my venture investors and so that part of it is actually great. But what it really comes down to is my business works. My business model is based on developing relationships, not just for one deal or one year even, but it's really a long term thing and in part that's like probably everyone who's in law needs to do that, but me in particular, my business model is to work with early stage companies who aren't really yet economic for a service provider, like my Gunnets and Demmer. So the whole premise is that it's really developing relationships that I'm going to have for not one year, one transaction, but 10 years and to kind of be their advisor. Really it goes, it goes beyond. Just like you know their lawyer, it's really their advisor Going through their, you know, the life cycle of their business. That that's what I my.

Speaker 2: 33:01

My view has shifted a bit with my new platform and, as I've kind of developed the business, that part of it is really really enjoyable because these are really personal relationships, you know. And so what I know for me, two things in answer to your question one I'll be here doing this for the, you know, in five years, and so I have some view of how I want to do that. I actually I didn't mention this to you, but I am actually right now Developing and preparing to launch my own podcast. Okay, so I'll keep you posted on that. Maybe you can see that. But but you know, that's that's a, that's a component of it.

Speaker 2: 33:37

But the but the reason I wanted to do that actually was because I was, it was one of my clients actually said hey, like you know, you should do this podcast. I really not only would it be cool because I can be on it is one of my venture clients, venture investors and you can have some of some of these other folks on. It would be fun to have, you know, develop a relationship doing that and, you know, have great conversations but also just because, like, no one's really doing it in your field and it would be great like to do these topics in particular, but I'll be doing this. I I have a view of how I'm going to develop my business and, you know, because I'm enjoying it. I mean, this is, this is where I want to be.

Speaker 1: 34:16

I Found out. You know a very early stage of doing what I'm doing now. Relationships are everything, regardless of whether it's in business or in your social, personal life, whatever it is, and if you can Nurture a relationship or a relationship to open doors for other people, you'll always be successful. And and Helping others and doing what you do for startups is absolutely awesome. I highly encourage you to do a podcast Because it people are looking for this knowledge that you have.

Speaker 1: 34:52

A lot of people say they're gonna do something and they make excuse or Procrastinate or something isn't right. It's not perfect, right. Little lesson for everybody watching this is never going to be a perfect time. The only time it is perfect is now, and if you have a commitment or you have an urge or passion Like Michael here, he will never, ever Work down his life because he's doing his passion. He works and lives and breathes passion. So he's not actually working, he's doing what he enjoys and that will breathe success. So you've been a complete inspiration for this, michael. Thank you very much for your time, hey thanks for having me on.

Speaker 2: 35:34

It was great to chat with you. Really appreciate it. I'm gonna.

Speaker 1: 35:39

This will podcast will be available very, very shortly for everybody. Thank you very much for listening in joining me. Share the message, share Michael looking up on either LinkedIn. I'm gonna have all his descriptions and bio below so you can connect with him. If you're looking for advice for myself, I'm best Porter. Thank you very much for joining me. It's been an honor, it's been a pleasure. Have an amazing day on purpose and I'll see you very soon.